Loading ...The upcoming Humax FOXSAT-HDR Freesat PVR will come equip with a CAM slot as most will already know.
Humax’s main priority is to Freesat, and whilst the CAM slot will work, and is capable of accepting cards from various pay to view platforms, it isn’t being pushed as a feature at this time. Ultimately, the facility to accept other platforms pay services has a potential massive future on this product, and Humax will be developing further.
Many have asked about Setanta, and whether it will work? At present the encryption on terrestrial is different than that of satellite so it won’t, however, we have been made aware that Humax are currently in talks with Setanta to find a solution.
Pay options may not be the intention of Freesat, but it certainly doesn’t stop the manufacturers themselves developing such options to help promote and sell their products. It seems Freesat have no issue with this.
November 1st, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I have slightly mixed feelings but hey, why not? Maybe it’s evolving into a FTA receiver that happens to have Freesat built in, with any luck, might be too much to ask. For one I would find that extremely attractive. The Foxsat is cumbersome and a bit limited in non-Freesat mode, let’s hope the HDR is more friendly.
Let’s prey that $ky don’t find a back door into the service and start selling CAMs..
I’m sure there are plenty who will find a CAM slot an extremely attractive proposition for 28.2′E and non 28.2′E services . .
StevenQuote
November 1st, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I am not really up with cam slots and cams, but would you be able to make it so an fsfs card works in the new Humax PVR, maybe get the extra channel 5 offerings and Channel 4 HD in non freesat mode?? I know you will not be able to record the channels until they become available on the freesat epg, but it would certainly fill the gap for a little while.
WaumoQuote
November 1st, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Well, potentially – but Sky’s encryption is based on technology from another NewsCorp company, and there aren’t CAMs made available for it. You can use a programmable CAM, which emulates the encryption system, but it’s imperfect – you need to put the card in a genuine Sky box from time to time to ensure that the ‘keep alive’ signal is processed correctly – the third party CAMs fall over on that point.
So, you’d need a Sky box anyway, to make the card work. And given that you can’t actually schedule recordings from non-Freesat channels at present, it all seems like a lot of hassles.
Additionally, some reports elsewhere on the net suggest that Sky has decided to drop the FreesatFromSky proposition, in favour of the ‘pay once, watch forever’.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 1st, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Interesting . . What’s the potential for a Freesat CAM and card? This could enable viewing of FTV channels like five and, say, Channel 4 HD? Or do $ky still have their tallons firmly fixed?
Apart from $kys ‘pay once’ and ‘watch forever’ there is surely a monopoly? One requires a $ky box even though it’s free.. Surely that can’t be right? I’m assuming that channels like five would be available only to those chosing a box from only one supplier?
Maybe I have it completely wrong and I apologise . . What does the $ky ‘watch forever’ package include?
StevenQuote
November 1st, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I signed up to Sky free for a year (1 yr ago) when they were doing special offers. So now I have all the freeview chanels via Sky for free. However ho HD so I am going to swap the box for a Humax PVR
IanQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 12:36 am
Presumably if there’s a critical mass of people who want Setanta with freesat, Setanta will just set up duplicate feeds (rather like the extra feeds used for pub subscriptions) using a different encryption.
Would be tempting to get freesat with setanta, particuarly if they launched an HD channel
SachaQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:28 am
Nigel – If the CAM slot is in included as the iCord (I thought this was being omitted on the Freesat HDR) with NON standard EPG – then assuming with FTA mode as a multi-platform box then using diseqc the universal CAM slot is enabled for subscribing to current Pay per View services — Its possible then to use a pay per view CAM and card from a certain Arab channel and watch Premier matches in English as one can do using any other FTA receiver – quite legal in your own home – but not within licensed premises where rights issues come into play. Of course one needs to be tracking the initiating Satellite,. This could of course be a non starter if Humax have this disabled. I would be interested in your comments.
Les NicolQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:19 am
If $kys ‘Pay Once Watch Forever’ deal included HD it would kind of make the whole Freesat scenario seem somewhat pointless . . Apart from ITV HD of course..
I have Freeview to fill the gaps that Freesat doen’t provide, for now . .
StevenQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Well, indeed, if you had a working CAM from another service, and that service is available in non-Freesat mode, then yes, you could watch it.
But all the information I have is that the CAM and non-Freesat modes are not a terribly high priority; the most important thing is to get the Freesat functionality working properly.
An official Freesat CAM, as a way to provide access to channels like Five, is very unlikely; Five has said they’ll go in the clear when they get carriage on 2D. And Freesat are not going to want to be in a situation where only certain kit can receiver certain Freesat channels, based on whether or not it has a CI slot (other than, obviously, HD channels only on HD receivers).
Finally, with regard to Setanta, they wouldn’t have to set up a duplicate feed; they could simulcrypt, which means encrypting the same broadcast with two different systems, though they’d probably need Sky’s consent and tweaks to the adaptation hubs. But that would be cheaper than hiring a whole new transponder.
(If anyone wants an explanation of how simulcrypting works, I’ll happily oblige),
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:40 am
Sky’s Pay Once Watch Forever wouldn’t entirely rule out Freesat if it included HD, Steven. A lot of people would be wary of entering into an agreement that, essentially, requires them to opt out of a subscription by a certain date.
The reason POWF is still going and Freesat From Sky isn’t (apparently) is most likely because POWF is much better at converting people to Sky subscribers.
If FSFS has indeed been dropped, to an extent it vindicates one of the reasons behind Freesat, namely that the PSBs (certainly BBC and ITV) have control of their own destiny. They’re not at the whim of a competitor who can use a desire to receive free stations as a lever to persuade people to take out a subscription, or suddenly drop a completely free option at a moment’s notice.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:51 am
Nigel said: (If anyone wants an explanation of how simulcrypting works, I’ll happily oblige),
There must be some ‘overhead’ using dual encryption? Depending on encryption protocol mabe?.. I have no idea to be honest . . Please explain . .
StevenQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 11:58 am
Nigel – Setanta – I assume that with simulcrypt that if it were to go ahead -TV sets that have an onboard universal CAM slot and SAT receivers that don’t have a CAM slot would pair to manage de-encrypting in a Pay per View scenario.
Les NicolQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Well, simulcrypting isn’t as horrendously complicated as you might imagine, because when you talk about encryption algorithms on digital broadcasting, it’s not the actual picture that’s protected by a particular type of encryption.
(Warning: this explanation may contains gross simplifications)
Encrypted broadcasts are scrambled using the Common Scrambling Algorithm (CSA), regardless of which encryption system is used. The key (like a password) used to scramble the broadcast changes very frequently.
The encryption (properly called conditional access) system actually just encrypts the control messages used to decide whether or not the smartcard you’re using will allow you to view something. If you have permission, then the key is unencrypted, and then used to access the information encoded using CSA.
So, you can have multiple chunks of conditional access data, each for a different encryption system, which is what simulcrypt does. The programme is scrambled just once, but there are multiple chunks of data for the different encryption methods, eg Sky/NDS VideoCrypt, Nagravision, Conax and so on. There’s a bit of overhead, but not that much.
The CAM looks out for its own conditional access messages, and if your card is valid, it pulls out the key for the video; all the different systems will come up with the same key, but the way it’s encrypted varies between them.
Les: no, a CAM in a TV can’t pair with a decoder, because in Digital Video Broadcasting, the decoding is all done in the digital domain, before MPEG decoding. By the time you’ve sent your picture from the set top box to the TV, it’s usually been converted to analogue (SCART), and certainly been through the MPEG decoder. The CI slots on a TV are only for use with their built in tuners.
In the analogue world, you could have an outboard decoder, because the encryption was analogue too; this is incidentally also why you’ll often see odd lines scrolling past on TV if you have cheap scart leads – the TV outputs the channel that it’s tuner has selected via the SCART, so that a decoder box can process the picture and send it back in as a viewable picture. In some older sets, you’ll find a ‘decoder’ option for each channel so that when you press 1, for example, it will send that channel to the SCART and display the SCART input on the TV. (A digression, I know; but possibly interesting to some).
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Nigel – Thanks for that! I thought it might be the case that the TV CAM may be tied to the freeview terrestrial tuner but wasn’t certain. However let’s see what future developments bring along.
Les NicolQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Interesting . . So we’re saying the actual ‘scrambling’ method is the same for all type of encrytion but it’s the ‘key’ encryption/code that’s different for each system, if that’s not over simplified . . Therefore the ‘key’ decoding algorithm can be sent for various systems sequentially and the appropriate code picked out depending on the system? . . Makes a lot of sense . .
Hope I got that right
StevenQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Yes, that’s more or less it. There is, at any time, precisely one key that will unlock the scrambled video, and that key is itself scrambled and sent as part of the conditional access information, for each encryption system.
Of course, one side effect of this is that if ever anyone cracked CSA, then you could view any scrambled video, regardless of which encryption is used to send the keys to viewers.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I’m all for a mixture of free to air and pay tv – if you want to pay and can afford it for something like Setanta, why should you be prevented? I would be happy to pay for specific channels, which is why I don’t pay Sky for channels I won’t watch. I’d happily pay a reasonable price for Eurosport 1 a month so I’m all for CAMs
Rob HQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
So, the key is the same regardless of system, it’s the encryption of the key only that’s different for each system . . Gotcha . . Phew! . . So therefore if you know the key you can unscramble the signal regardless of system..
That’s really interesting, many thanks Nigel. Assuming I’ve got my head round it correctly . . . .
StevenQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Finally, once you have the key where does the un-scrambling take place? In the CAM or the receiver? Or is it not quite as straightforward as that?
StevenQuote
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
As far as I know (but I’d have to check to be certain), the CAM itself decrypts the key using whatever its own decryption system is, and then that key is used to unscramble the video using the Common Scrambling Algorithm.
I think that latter part takes part in the CAM chipset, but I could be wrong – the standards will explain exactly where. But my gut feeling is that it would be the CAM, or at least a part of the CI system, because of the way the CAM slot can also be used to inject video into some systems – there are some clever CAMs that, for example, have an ethernet port and allow you to browse for files on your network, then feed them into the STB, as if they were a broadcast.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 3rd, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Perhaps there is scope for a satellite version of TopUpTV – by employing the CAM capability in the Humax HD PVR – and providing a limited number of subscription services?
Chris GuestQuote
November 3rd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
There is – but unless people want to do extra streams, you have to simulcrypt and while it’s pretty straightforward, as I’ve outlined, Sky could prove a fly in the ointment.
Sky is very fond of their encryption system; it’s apparently remained uncracked. However, theoretically, because of the way that simulcrypting is done, if one of the encryption mechanisms in use is cracked, it could make it a little easier to crack another of those on the same stream.
That is a very theoretical possibility, I think – but it’s the sort of security excuse that Sky could quite legitimately use to dissuade channels on their platform from entering into an agreement with anyone else.
It’s a shame – what would actually be far better, I think, than a service like TopUp on satellite would instead be a situation where channels could retail themselves directly to end users, so you could buy a smart card from Discovery Networks, for example, instead of going through an intermediary.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 5th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
So, if I bought this PVR with the purpose of getting rid of Sky +, on which I really only watch the main channels anyway, getting HD, replacing my Technomate 1500+ that we use to watch JSTV (Japanese broadcasts on 13E), and the crappy PVR we have connected to the Technomate to pause and record JSTV, it appears it could do all of that *if* I bought the Cryptoworks CI module, or one of the multicrypt modules. One question would be whether capability exists to mix signals (I can’t remember what that is called), since FreeSat is on 28.3E and JSTV is on 13E, and presumably the reciever would have to be able to separate the two signals. This is a usual feature on FTA receivers, but am wondering if it is on the FoxSat. If so, it would seem to check all my boxes, and I will be the first in line to buy one of these!
Nik FrengleQuote
November 6th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Well, until someone with a multi-sat setup checks all this, it’s hard to be sure of the details. But what is clear from my conversations and those other people have had is that recording from other satellites is very much a secondary function on the box; initially, there probably won’t even be a timed record option for recordings in non-Freesat mode, so you’ll have to do an instant record. And if a Freesat recording is scheduled, I understand that will take priority, and interrupt other recordings.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 10th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Where do you get all this onfo about the equipment you talk about on this website and are there any books we can buy to learn more about all this, and get to understand the technical jargon. Particularly the cryptoworks C1 module
We have SKY+ and will buy the Humax HDR when it is available.
BarbandegsQuote
November 11th, 2008 at 10:14 am
A lot of it is just from the various bits of research I’ve had to do over the years in my job as a writer; I’m afraid I’d be hard pushed to list the sources – I just have a brain cluttered with odd technical facts.
Maybe I should write a book. Been a while since I did one
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 11th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Your welcome to write even more content for this site
adminQuote
November 11th, 2008 at 11:34 am
I’m not sure you could afford my rates for professional work
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
November 12th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Nigel =- I will check out what the Humax Freesat HDR can manage as far as recording is concerned in both modes and will post feedback.
I have a 1.25 meter 36 volt motorised dish and a 60cm Triax static. Both are ground mounted and both have twin core sat cable feeds allowing me to check out different configurations.
Les NicolQuote
November 12th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Nigel – Forgot to confirm for you that the CAM does decrypt the key via its own decryption system.
Les NicolQuote
November 13th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Nik Frengle You will not be able to record across the two EPG’s ie: FTA and Freesat Modes. You will have to be in one or the other modes to set up recording and in FTA mode you will have to do this in real time as I understand it the Foxsat HDR confiquration permits all the recording variables only whilst in Freesat mode. At this point I am assuming that in FTA mode you will be able record one and watch another. However until I can check this out I can’t confirm this. It may be that the software will only permit this where your watching and recording another channel on the same Satellite transponder.
You will also either have to motorize have two dishes or have a special (readily available from SAT dealerships) angle bracket for a single dish that allows you to pick up signals from Astra/ Eurobird and Hotbird respectively.
Les NicolQuote
November 13th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Ni Frengle – Should have mentioned that in the latter two arrangements you would also require to cable via a signal stacker box to feed the twin tuners on the receiver.
Les NicolQuote
November 13th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Humax please settle down, and stop making changes to the Foxsat HDR
A lot of people are becoming rather fedup of the long wait to be able to purchase one these HDRs
What are we waiting for ?
Bert AllsopQuote
November 13th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Bert – To my knowledge there have been “No” changes to the Humax HDR box. —– Just a few more days and hey the wait will be well worth it!
Les NicolQuote
November 15th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Nigel – Not sure if you are aware of this but assuming the CAM slot is active and with a sky card using a TRex or Diablo CAM both of which are able to handle NDS you could receive Channel 4HD ITV HD and channel5 in FTA mode.
Les NicolQuote
November 15th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Yes, I know you could. As I mentioned in post 3 in this very thread, I consider it a lot of hassle, and frankly not worth it for most ordinary users.
Nigel WhitfieldQuote
January 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
just to confirm!
I am purchasing this recorder tomorrow and I have to confirm some technical issues.
I currently have a basic package with sky (entertainment selection) and I would like to be able to watch freesat and my sky subscription from the same box!
To do this I am under the impression literally ALL I need is a t-rex/diablo cam and slot my sky card into it???
Is this correct please?
JasonQuote
January 29th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
i can’t tell you but the guys over at the digital spy forum may be able to help.
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=199
PaulQuote
February 22nd, 2009 at 4:08 am
Nigel, I remember a prototype CAM module that was developed by BSkyB in collaboration with NDS, which incorporated a Videoguard CAM and DSAT tuner in one CAM module.. The PCMCIA part of the device was slim enough (with integral card reader).. to fit into Cam slot fitted TV’s and STB’s… but the far end of it was like a fat wedge with the F port on the end. Of course it never saw the light of day following On Digital and ITV Digitals demise, but it shows it’s been possible to integrate tuners in to CAM Modules together with card readers. Incidentally, Neotion manufacture CAM Modules with built in H264 AVC decoders and card slots now too.
LisaQuote
January 25th, 2012 at 9:50 pm
I’ve just purchased a HUMAX Foxsat-HDR 350GB Satellite HD Digital Television Recorder and my question is, “How do I go about getting a C-1 Module and Viewing Cards and what is it likely to cost?”
I’m REALLY not savvy with these things and would appreciate a little ‘HELP’
Thank You
Michael H. GeddesQuote
February 15th, 2012 at 7:27 pm
How do I get my unexpired sky card to work on Humax
Robert ArnoldQuote