Loading ...Further to the news announcement today that Ofcom has awarded two licenses for HD channels on Freeview from 2010, Freesat wish to point out the following:
- Roll out of Freeview HD channels will be linked to digital switchover, which means that HD will only become available in the UK on a region-by-region basis from launch until 2012. See this page for information.
- In order to view HD channels on Freeview, consumers will need to replace their existing Freeview receiving equipment (either a set-top box or television with Freeview receiver built-in) by purchasing entirely new equipment.
- Freeview coverage in the UK currently stands at 73%. Even after digital switchover there will still be a proportion of UK households which will not be able to view Freeview and it’s HD channels whilst Freesat reaches 98% of UK homes now.
Quote from Freesat concerning today’s announcement:
With Freesat, subscription free high definition (HD) is already a reality for the UK. We believe our no strings offer of over 130 channels plus great HD programmes from the BBC and ITV, for a one off payment of as little as £120, is leading the way in making HD the standard that viewers will come to expect in the future.
Due to the way we broadcast our service, via satellite rather than traditional aerial, HD is available now to 98% of UK homes via Freesat. Freesat homes don’t have to wait until Digital Switchover reaches their region to get HD for free – which for large parts of the country is still over three years off.
October 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Worth pointing out, however, that there have been suggestions from Ofcom that some areas with late swithchover (including London) may have a temporary frequency allocation for HD, which can bring things forward a little.
While late 2009 is the start for HD on terrestrial, and widespread kit sales aren’t really likely to 2010, I have a pretty strong suspicion that in the short term at least – until around completely of DSO and possibly beyond – there’s not actually going to be that much difference in the amount of HD on both platforms.
So far, we know that BBC, ITV and C4 will be on the Freeview platform, with a fourth slot potentially becoming available later, and most likely to end up as five HD, maybe as soon as later in 2010.
Freesat has BBC HD, and what passes as a channel from ITV. It will probably get C4 HD at some point. Five will very likely continue to dither, perhaps until they’re ready to launch on Freeview too.
Beyond that, who’s going to launch an HD channel aimed at the UK that’s wholly supported by advertising, right now? There would need to be a substantial uptake of boxes for anyone to make it worth their while, and it would have to be someone with pretty compelling content too.
The current PSBs have a good following amongst FTA viewers; they can cross-promote, and they don’t want to be left behind. For anyone else, right now it’s 5-600,000 Sky boxes, plus Freesat’s 60-70k HD boxes. Obviously the latter will increase, but even so, many channels might prefer the guaranteed income they’ll get from being in a Sky mix, especially with the ad sales market likely to contract during a recession.
So, yes, Freesat are right in that you can get HD today from them, if you want. But once Freeview HD happens (around this time next year), and probably for the first couple of years, I suspect there won’t actually be massively more HD on Freesat than on Freeview. Who’s going to broadcast it?
October 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Could you please tell me how to get ”our no strings offer of over 130 channels plus great HD programmes from the BBC and ITV, for a one off payment of as little as £120” is this a miss quote or what??? The cheapest box is a Goodmans @ £108.49 then you have a dish & instalation on top .Not for an all in of £120 I don’t think
October 17th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Perhaps they mean “as little as 120 if you’ve already got a dish”
Marketing people are like that. Just you wait until the revolution comes…
October 17th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Perhaps when the recession really bites there could be mass cancellations of Sky’s premium & HD channels and a migration toward Freesat HD as the current poll on this site indicates. Many public houses have already dumped Sky Sports
October 17th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
so the way i read it is bbc hd, itv hd , and c4hd.
so why will we need freesat better channels on freeview (sorry but its ture)
how long untill c4 hd comes to freesat.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
It depends on how you define better channels, doesn’t it? For some people, there may be little of interest on any of those HD channels, and the appeal of Freesat may be some of the indian stuff, or BET, or BBC Alba, or more music channels, or more news channels.
It’s also distinctly possible that there may be differences between the HD services on each platform – you may find Freeview opts for 720p by and large, with 1080i on Freesat.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Timmy, I can give you one very good reason, bandwidth.
Freeview is allegedly very short of it and come HD launch will reduce SD quality by a reported 1/3rd approx. Also, I wouldn’t expect HD to be great quality either as high compression is probably likely to be needed if bandwidth is that short.
So in a nutshell, why do you need Freesat? Because the picture will be good, far better than on Freeview which is going to allegedly get worse.
Also, there’s allegedly no room for more HD channels on Freeview after those 4 are added, on Freesat the Sky’s the limit (excuse the cross platform pun).
October 17th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Is Sky HD currently at 1080i or 720p?
October 17th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Al, would love to see your source for the ‘reduce SD quality by a “reported” 1/3rd’ statement…
October 18th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Hey what a blog,,,so you take any donations?
October 18th, 2008 at 12:36 am
Glen here you go:
http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051356
October 18th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Wonder who’s in the running for the manufacture of DVB-T2/MPEG4 HD Freesat boxes? Perhaps a terrestrial version the the Foxsat HD.
I wouldn’t have thought the technology is that different to DVB-S2? But I can’t make any technical judgement in that department. Hopefully most of the works done and will be more like fitting a terrestrial tuner inside an HD satellite receiver.
I suppose everything will go to DVB-T2/MPEG4 eventually, but by that time I suspect new technology will enable another doubling of capacity, again.
I’m excited at the prospect of Freeview HD . .
October 18th, 2008 at 9:22 am
That’s not a source. That’s a notoriously innaccurate blog.
October 18th, 2008 at 9:32 am
dos this all so mean that there will be more hd channels on freeview than on freesat
eg ch4 hd
ch4 hd coming to freeview but still no news its coming to freesat.
October 18th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Timmy – probably not. Read Nigel’s first post.
October 18th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Oops! My previous post, No11 should have referred to the “manufacture of DVB-S2/MPEG4 HD Freeview boxes” Not freesat . .
October 18th, 2008 at 10:39 am
I disagree Glen. Briantist who runs that web site is extremely knowledgeable and I’ve personally yet personally to see anything inaccurate on that web site.
If you want ot bury your head in the sand then do so, I won’t be on Freeview (at least except when there’s nothing else on other channels) so it won’t bother me what you’re watching.
Maybe you’ll accept a Guardian interview with Emma Scott, MD of Freesat and previous director at Freeview:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/may/12/itv.bbc
She doesn’t directly mention the 33% reduction but she does say “With high definition broadcasting not possible on Freeview until after switchover, and then only on four channels” there’s more than a hint of the bandwidth problem.
BBC’s own blogs:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/sporteditors/2007/09/freeview_or_digital_or_bbci.html
“On the satellite and cable platforms we are regularly able to broadcast five streams of sport within a multiscreen – so little problem getting everything we have onto air.
Freeview, however, does not have the luxury of such bandwidth. In fact, we only have two extra streams on top of whatever BBC ONE and BBC TWO are showing. ”
BBC again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbchd/what_is_hd.shtml
“The future
BBC HD is not currently available on digital terrestrial (Freeview) because there is not enough bandwidth in the signal. Plans are in development that may make it possible to get HD on Freeview from around 2009, provided you upgrade to an HD Freeview box at that time.”
BBC’s own HD trial report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/policies/pdf_text_archive/dtt_hdtrial.html
“However, the national rollout of high definition services on DTT still has some major obstacles to overcome. The biggest obstacle in the path of HD on DTT is the shortage of capacity currently available for the service. Due to the larger amount of information that HD broadcasts need to contain, an HD channel uses a larger amount of bandwidth. Each HD channel is likely to need bandwidth equivalent to that required by three or four standard definition channels even when using more advanced MPEG-4 technology.
This means that current capacity constraints would not allow a substantial HD service to be broadcast on the DTT platform unless a large number of existing channels were removed from it. While improvements in compression technology and forthcoming mode changes may allow one, or possibly two, HD channels to be squeezed onto the platform at some point in the future, an HD service of five channels, equivalent to that available on analogue terrestrial – the kind of minimum service expected by our trialists – would not be possible.”
October 18th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Sky is at 720p
October 18th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
That BBC report is actually pretty old, and I too fundamentally disagree with some of the stuff posted on that website too – parts of it are just made up.
If you want a blow by blow analysis of the HD proposals, from the first reports through to the latest updates, check out the thread at http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9477 where I’ve pulled a lot of the reports apart in excruciating detail.
The HD service on Freeview will not require the loss of a huge amount of SD, and the performance of the DVB-T2, which I saw at IBC in Amsterdam last month, has turned out to be much better than was anticipated, with much improved gains thanks to MPEG4 as well. It’s already possible to get 3 channels on a mux at very good quality – as demonstrated in Amsterdam – and that’s with brand new silicon.
It’s unlikely there’ll be more than four channels on Freeview in the short to medium term, but it’s also pretty unlikely Freesat will get much more HD than that in the immediate future, too.
October 18th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Yeah I know the Trial report is pretty old, 2006, hence why they were only expecting to be able to get 1 or 2 channels on Freeview. The better than expected DVB-T2 standard and the SD quality reduction is whats going to allow the rest.
Even Ofcom are declaring here in their own press release that they’re going to squeeze the existing 6 channels worth of SD programs onto only 5 channels to make way for HD Freeview:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2008/10/nr_20081017
October 18th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Six muxes into five, yes. But the outlandish predictions about “30 percent loss in quality” are just that.
If you want to do the maths, it’s nowhere near as bad as that. For starters, there’s more happening than just a bit of shuffling, including a mode change on several muxes at DSO; this will up the carrying capacity of Mux 1, for example, to be on a par with that of Mux 2.
Presently Mux 1 carries 14.7Mbits/sec for 4 video streams; Mux 2 carries 18.02Mits/sec, for eight streams.
Mux 1 is currently configured to give 4.5Mbits/sec to BBC1; this is to do with the way regional opt outs are done, but will be changed at DSO, allowing full stat muxing; this should make it quite possible to carry the four streams in around 9Mbits, the same as the on Mux 2. That’s a gain of up to 5Mbits sec right away, leaving around another 9Mbits available for displaced services, which presently total 11.69Mbits/sec.
One interactive stream is probably going, and there will be some other jiggling around, which may affect what channels are available to those on relay transmitters.
But, essentially, the mode changes on the muxes at DSO mean that the carrying capacity of the 5 SD muxes in their new modes will be the same as that of the present 6 muxes in their current modes.
Aside from the impossibility of quantifying a “30% reduction in quality”, there’s no actual net loss of bandwidth, though the way in which it’s distributed may cause some issues – but certainly not of the order of magnitude that some are suggesting.
October 18th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Forgot to say – the raw capacity of Freeview now is
4 * 18 Mbits/sec muxes, plus 2 * 24Mbits/sec muxes = 120Mbits/sec
After DSO, SD will be confined to 5 * 24Mbits/sec muxes = 120Mbits/sec
No net loss of capacity.
October 18th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Ok accepting what you’re saying Nigel that the report is inaccurate as to a bandwidth reduction, that still doesn’t alleviate the problem that there’s no bandwidth to add any further HD programming whereas with Freesat there’s no such limit.
So Freeview is limited to 4 HD channels whereas Freesat could, channels being availble, carry many more. In a HD future, where eventually all channels with be HD, that alone says Freeview has had its day.
October 18th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Well, what’s likely to happen on Freeview is that, although there’s no bandwidth reduction, there will be some minor quality reduction, as a consequence of the re-arrangement. Just not as much as some folk fear.
In terms of free HD, no there won’t be any more in the short term, and the two remaining PSB muxes, which will carry all the existing terrestrials will continue in MPEG2/DVB-T for around a decade after DSO, and possibly more.
However, there are three commercial muxes; they’re not going to switch to the new format terribly soon, because using DVB-T2 would cut themselves off from existing viewers. But at some stage, some of those mux operators may decide that there are sufficient HD & DVB-T2 capable receivers to switch mode, which will gain each of them a 50% increase in carrying capacity. They could also switch SD to MPEG4 – something that’s not likely to happen on satellite, as SD boxes don’t do MPEG4, whereas all DVB-T2 boxes are likely to. This will open up some more capacity, for extra SD and HD.
So there is a potential route to more free HD on Freeview, but it’s medium to long term, rather than short to medium – and of course, someone like Sky could bid for space to launch an HD service terrestrially in the spectrum to be auctioned, though it’s unlikely to be free to air.
But in the short to medium term, of course, there’s still the big glaring question of will there be many free HD channels that will want carriage on either platform? I really don’t see much more appearing until some time after DSO, with ad revenue becoming increasingly difficult to come by.
Satellite will remain easier for channels that wish to launch, of course, because carriage costs will likely be smaller than for Freeview, but conversely there are rights issues.
And satellite’s not got limited bandwidth, either – if you want to launch you either have to have content where no one cares about european overspill (ie, nothing special) or use the Astra 2D satellite with its restricted footprint – and that’s pretty crowded right now; space may actually start to get more expensive as a result.
Don’t forget five is taking long enough to get space for a single SD stream on 2D, let alone finding the space for HD; getting a new satellite up there will take years.
That, and the lack of people who will be able to make real cash out of a free to air HD channel, means that short to medium term, whichever platform you go for, you’re not going to get lots of HD.
Long term, yes there are potential issues with space on Freeview if they wanted to, say, do BBC1 and BBC2 in HD, but those channels aren’t even planned yet. And SES Astra will need to get another bird up there before they and others could become reality for satellite too.
October 19th, 2008 at 10:33 am
I was under the impression that Freesat HD was six times higher definition than SD and I imagine that is because it is transmitted at 1080p. I notice on the recent Sky adverts for their HD service that they claim four times the definition of SD. Surely if they are transmitting at 720p then their HD is inferior to Freesat?
What is the legal definition or industry standard of HD? 720p or 1080p? Can any of you technocrats out there enlighten me on this confusing issue?
October 19th, 2008 at 11:25 am
I think there’s some confusion here Michael. No one is transmitting commercially in 1080P to my knowledge (at least amongst mainstream UK broadcasters) because there isn’t the bandwidth to run enough channels with that much data per channel. Even 1080i takes 25% more bandwidth than 720P quality for quality.
Freesat is transmitted at 1080i or 720P. Sky is transmitted at the same rates also. The exact choice depends on the type of program as progressive and interlaced outputs at HD both have disavantages in detail vs motion handling.
No one is transmitting 6 times the detail as that resolution it doesn’t exist in a commercial transmitted format at the moment.
To put it simply, 720P: 1080 x 720 vs SD Pal 720 x 576 = 1.9 times more detail.
You can check with a calculator. Multiply the resolutions together then divide the HD by the SD and the result shows the increase in pixel count as a factor (777600 / 414720 = 1.875).
Even 1920 x 1080 is still only 5 times as much. (2073600 / 414720 = 5).
October 19th, 2008 at 11:32 am
So Freeview is limited to 4 HD channels
l think that it will still be more than we will see on freesat.
October 19th, 2008 at 11:40 am
my point is will we see more than 4 hd channels on freesat
if its no than than whats the point of having freesat when freview hd is up and running
October 19th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Timmy, Freeview HD isn’t already up and running as such. It will be switched on region by region when the analogue signal is switched off. That may be as late as 2012 or as early as the end of this year depending on your region. Also, you’ll need a brand new Freeview HD box as the the existing boxes decode MPEG2 and DVB-T compression / transmission whereas Freeview HD is MPEG4 and DVB-T2. So count on buying another box or an external box if your tv is integrated.
Also, 4 HD channels is the capacity not whats currently to be transmitted on Freeview. I understand 2 channels is the early plan which will probably be BBC HD and ITV HD same as Freesat.
In the long run, Freesat will probably get more HD channels as 4 channels is a brick wall for Freeview. Freesat has no such limitation so the only limitation will be the number of channels produced in HD. Over the years, HD is going to take over as its the future and what the public are demanding – there are 10 million consumers with HD or HD ready sets so demand is there. So you can count on all channels slowly transitioning to HD. Only Freesat can currently accomodate that.
October 19th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
YAWN, ZZZZZZZZZZ, YAWN, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
October 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
thank for that AI
as for you johnboy. if think you need to go to bed you tired little boy.
October 19th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I’m less optimistic than Al about Freesat HD, at least short term, and more optimistic than him about Freeview – which should be 3 channels at the start, incidentally.
I also think it’s a touch disingenuous of the Freesat folk to point out that you’ll need a new box to get Freeview HD, since you’ll obviously need to buy a new box to get Freesat at all.
Transition of everything to HD will happen, but it’s certainly going to be very interesting to see how the global downturn affects it – things like the level of licence fee funding for the BBC, advertising revenues for commercial stations, the mind boggling cost of getting another satellite up for Astra.
One things for sure, we certainly do live in interesting times…
October 20th, 2008 at 12:14 am
I’m sure there’s confusion between screen resolution and actual source material resolution/bandwidth . . My TV, and most I’m sure, runs at 1080i regardless of channel, HD or not. Certainly ITV1 doesn’t look HD at 1080i! It actually looks better on Freeview.
You could spend £10,000 on a Hi-Fi but if you havn’t got any well recorded music to play it’s still gonna sound cr%p.
The point I’m trying to make is, you might think you’re watching at 1080i or 720p but the actual resolution is down to the broadcaster and source material resolution. The figure simply represents the maximum resolution available, simple.
October 20th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Of course, the whole Freeview problem could be solved if the entire platform went over to MPEG4… However, that would render all currently existing Freeview receivers useless! Mind you, as HD rolls out on Freeview, more and more people will be getting MPEG4-capable receivers (and if new SD receivers could be made MPEG4-capable too), MPEG2 could *eventually* be dropped (after about 20 years, maybe!).
Needless to say, much the same could be said of Freesat and Sky – but but with rather less urgency (let’s allow them 40 years!).
October 20th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Nice blog, I love to see this kind of content, keep up the good work.
October 20th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Will ITV HD ever get its own channel on freesat? Not be able to record it is a joke. Cheers
October 20th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
‘Not be able to record it is a joke’…
Freesat PVRs will be able to record it. Non Freesat satellite recorders can also record it….what was the punchline again?
October 20th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Quite right Davei . . Unfortunately I’ll possibly be dead in 40 years
.. I might not be around to enjoy the benefit of another 2,000 channels, of what?
During this digital era let’s hope we don’t continue with this trend of un-Hi-Fi-ness (audio and visual) and the steadily lowering standards of media distribution and the compromise of real purity.
Turn off everything else and leave me to enjoy BBC Radio and TV, absolute bargain at £12.00 a month . .
October 22nd, 2008 at 9:28 am
Shouldn’t the title of this thread be ‘HD on Freeview’ rather than ‘Freesat on Freeview’?!
March 27th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
my freeview box isn’t getting any signal what shall i do?
October 19th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Freesat is great , I have a Panasonic Freesat Television ….how can I record from this to a hard disc recorder ????
December 30th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
jb, as far as I’am aware you can not record the freesat programs from an intergrated freesat tv, but instead you will need a freesat recorder!
April 30th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Could somebody tell me when we are going to get more channels on Freesat as I have had Freesat for 15 Months and only a few new channels have arrived,I’m considering buying a freesat recorder but it isn’t worth it until more channels are available
May 2nd, 2010 at 1:18 am
The freesat uk site states that there are broadcasting at 720p,1080i and 1080p I have heard that there is a loss of quality through the air waves to the freesat receiver and you are not getting true 1080p is there any truth in this